A few questions for Sara
by robinhobb on Apr.30, 2010, under Robin Hobb and Sara Creasy
Because I haven’t known her long, and I’m always curious about what makes other writers tick!
So, as a writer, characters always come first for me. A character strolls through my mind first, and if I’m lucky, he’s dragging a plot behind him. But many SF writers I know tell me that a plot or a ‘what if’ comes to them first, and then they people the plot with characters. So, which comes first in your inspiration train? Characters or plot?
I liked the ending for Scarabaeus. It was satisfying, but left lots of room for the reader to imagine what might happen next. Do you think you’ll ever return to that world?
And the famous “What are you working on now?” question.
And finally: I broke into print over forty years ago, publishing my first short story at 18. (Go ahead, do the math! I’m old!) My first novel was sold when I was 30. So I’m from the age of carbon copies and SASE’s and studying Writer’s Market carefully. When aspriring writers send me an email these days, asking me the best way to break into print, I often wonder if my experience and advice are of any use to them. I was told to go for short stories first, and then after I’d published a few, use those credentials to approach editors. And it worked. A short story of mine called “Bones for Dulath” appeared in an anthology called AMAZONS! edited by Jessica Amanda Salmonson and published by DAW. It worked. It made a favorable impression on Terri Windling, who was then an editor at ACE books and led to my first novel sale.
So, how does it work nowadays, Sara? Did you self publish anything on line? Do you think new writers need an agent to begin the process? I’m genuinely curious how someone breaks into print these days.
Robin
Related posts:
- Compare & contrast As Robin mentioned in her introductory post (hi, Robin!), one of the major things she and Sara Creasy (hi, Sara!) have in common is an affinity for lush, rainforest-esque settings, much like the Pacific Northwest. One major difference between Robin & Sara’s novels, though, is how they get to those...
- Greetings from Robin Hobb Hi! This is my test post to see if I can make all this work. It’s not too different from my own website, robinhobb.com which is also a wordpress one. I’m Robin Hobb, and I’ve been a fantasy novelist for 28 years now. Well, a published novelist for 28 years....
- Intro ditty from Sara Creasy Just a quick intro post from me before we get stuck into it. Firstly, thanks to Robin for helping me log in! Secondly, today is the release day for my debut novel Song of Scarabaeus (from Eos) - so far I’ve resisted the temptation to dash over to my local...
- Our settings, our selves? Hi Sara (and everyone else!) I had a curious thought (I know, sometimes it’s curious that I have thoughts at all, but still . . . ) I’m wondering how significant a writer’s home ’setting’ is to what he/she writes. I do a lot of foresty backdrops, and a lot...
- Procrastination Sara says it’s my turn to make a post. So I think I’ll saddle up one of my favorite hobby horses and go on about writers and writing and procrastination. Of course, before I can start, I need to go upstairs and put a warm-up in my coffee mug. And...
April 30th, 2010 on 7:02 pm
For Song of Scarabaeus, the main character Edie developed at the same time as the plot… but not the plot I ended up with! Initially, I was more interested in her childhood as an outcast in a low-tech tribal society who ends up navigating the brights lights of the big city. At one time thought that’s the story I would be writing. However, I couldn’t resist the lure of a high-tech “what if?” story, so the terraforming angle became the setting for a character I’d already fleshed out, and the concept developed into more of a hard sci-fi story.
I can answer your next two questions at the same time. The book has a sequel (due out in 2011) that continues the story of the main characters. My third novel (with unrelated characters) is in the planning stages. I haven’t fully figured out where it fits into the universe I’ve created but it’s probably during a different time period so it may not be immediately obvious to readers that it’s the same universe.
I’m also working on two other projects, including one YA. In those cases, the settings and plot did come first. One came from a “what if?” scenario, and the other stemmed from a theme I wanted to explore. Starting with a theme is probably a bad way to go when you’re writing an adventure story. (Have you ever done that, Robin?) We’ll see how it turns out…
April 30th, 2010 on 7:14 pm
On to the next question. (You’re wearing me out!) Like you, I always thought the best way to break into genre fiction was short stories first, then a novel. That’s not what I did, so I wouldn’t necessarily give that advice, but I don’t see anything wrong with it either. A solid list of short story publications in your bio looks good to any agent or editor.
Song of Scarabaeus was my first completed manuscript, but it was 8 years in the making, then took 2 years to sell (including finding an agent and doing a couple of major rewrites). I would hope that most aspiring writers can come up with more than one novel-length manuscript in 10 years. I had a really slow start!
My advice to those who want to be published and make money (as opposed to those who write for their own pleasure) is to treat the process as a business. Learn the craft, study the market, and be professional. Don’t become so attached to your writing or even to your story that you are unable to edit – sometimes drastically – in order to catch the attention of an agent or editor. If you can’t accept that your first few books may need to match someone else’s vision as much as your own, you may never be able to break in. For subsequent books, when you’ve made your name, I think you earn the freedom to concentrate more on the art and less on the conventions. I don’t know if this was true 30 or 40 years ago, Robin, but from everything I’ve read about genre fiction publishing today it seems to be the case (with some exceptions, of course).
That doesn’t mean sacrificing all artistic integrity. It may mean making a few compromises. It definitely means knowing the market and figuring out where you fit in. If you don’t fit in anywhere, you’re probably going to have a hard time convincing an agent or editor to take you on.
April 30th, 2010 on 9:39 pm
Robin, I’ve heard the same advice - start with short stories - and it clearly worked for Patrick Rothfuss (he sold Name of the Wind based on a short story from it winning a prize), but there are so few markets for short stories these days that I don’t see how it can work.
These days, the trick seems to be catching an agent’s eye. Hence the many webpages dedicated to the art of cover letter writing. Editors are too overworked and underpaid to shop for manuscripts; they’ve turned that duty over to the agents. Especially now that there are so many manuscripts.
That’s what Sara did: she decided she wanted Kristen as an agent, and then she got her. Sure, she applied to a bunch of other agents, and the process was convoluted and difficult, but basically she identified an agent who would like what she wrote and then convinced her to read it.
I’m trying the other route - self-publishing, e-books, etc. - but so far it’s not working as well as Sara’s method.
May 1st, 2010 on 12:29 am
Full disclosure: Yahzi has inside information because he’s married to me.
May 1st, 2010 on 1:19 am
Regarding Sara’s comments about compromising on a first book . . . well, I’ve been writing novels for clsoe to 30 years now, and in some ways I still make compromises on every one of them. I really try to listen to my editors. They always have a perspective on my stories that is difficult for me to achieve. I’m fortunate to work with two editors: Jane Johnson for the UK editions and Jennifer Brehl for the US ones. When they BOTH agree that something needs changing, well, I ignore that at my peril. I can think of only one case where I plowed stubbornly ahead. And six months later, re-reading that book, I went, “Oh, no! They were right! I should have changed that!” (And no, I’ll never tell what bit that was!)
I’ve worked with a number of editors over the years, and I’ve yet to encounter one who didn’t have the best interests of the book at heart. So I’ll echo what Sara said. Once you are fortunate enough to have an editor, consider that editor the advocate for your book!
Robin
May 1st, 2010 on 1:33 am
Yahzi, I think you might be on the crest of the next wave of publishing.
Frankly, sometimes it scares the heck out of me when I look at self-publishing and e-books. It’s a pretty steep learning curve for someone like me. And having visited sites such as Preditors and Editors (http://pred-ed.com/), or SFWA sponsored Writer Beware (http://www.sfwa.org/for-authors/writer-beware/)I’m well aware that there are a lot of possible pitfalls lurking out there for those who would self-publish. I hasten to add that there are many legitimate and helpful companies that help authors self-publish.
I think we are going to see self-publishing and e-books really come into their own in this coming decade. It won’t be just for specialty books andfor newcomers to the writing field. Self-publishing and e-books are also useful resources for established authors who are trying to make a backlist of out-of-print works available again. Bookview Cafe comes to mind. (http://www.bookviewcafe.com/index.php/Vonda-N.-McIntyre/Novels/)
Oops. 10:30 PM. Time for me to round up grandkids and enforce bedtime.
Oh, this glamourous life as a full time writer!
Robin
May 2nd, 2010 on 12:22 pm
I don’t really like the term self-published; normally I tell people that Sara is published and I am printed.
The self-published world isn’t a terrible threat just yet: the amount of self-pubbed material is still overwhelming, and the quality can be frightfully low. (I mean, seriously, I’ve seen some self-pubbed books that make me question the author’s sanity.) I’ve found that most review sites won’t even take self-pubbed books - some have even admitted it’s a shame because they’ve seen a few self-pubbed books that were great. Key words: a few.
So the problem is the distribution channel: getting people to see your book and even consider buying it. It’s all about attention and credibility. Right now the big guys have the attention of booksellers and the trust of readers. Unknown self-pubbers aren’t going to change that.
But authors might. Given that certain authors (such as yourself) have built-in credibility, one starts to wonder what exactly the publishers bring to the table. If you, Terry, and George put out a list of books every month that you thought were good, wouldn’t that be just as trustworthy as Penguin’s/Tor’s/et al publishing record? And sooner or later you will be able to POD a book for close to what it costs to mass-print (remember your 40% discount for no returns :D). But of course they still have the bookstores…
Which is where e-books come in. E-books will explode once somebody makes a decent e-book reader (I’m still waiting for a really good one!). When the net replaces bookstores as the primary browsing medium, then it will be a bad time to be a traditional publisher. And bookstore.
But not a bad time to be a traditional author. E-book royalties are great (typically 40%) and there are no returns.
Once you’ve gained the attention of your fans, as long as you deliver they will support you (and gain you more fans).
Imagine a union of writers running the show. Down with publishers! The writers will never be free until they control the means of printing! Oh wait…
May 2nd, 2010 on 12:28 pm
Just to be clear, I meant Terry Goodkind, not Terry the site admin. Not that I doubt your taste in books, Terry!
May 2nd, 2010 on 11:28 pm
I think word of mouth through social networking on forums has helped me lately to work out what next to try on authors etc.
This site for example and Robin’s posts definitely have led me to now know Sara.
May 3rd, 2010 on 1:48 am
Alas, I must disgree! I think Publisher offer far more than a good distribution system.
You would not want to get next to a book of mine that had not been professionally edited!
In my opinion, publishing houses act like gold miners panning on a stream. Not only do they shake and swirl all the books until they have only their top choices left, they then polish what they have to bring out its best. Editors tune and polish, cut out immense hunks of wandering prose (in my case!), remind me not to repeat myself so much and catch literally dozens of silly errors per book. I will never forget Jane’s small comment. “You do realize, don’t you, that you have a dead man rowing the boat?”
I had inadvertantly swapped character names in that scene and did indeed have a fellow I’d killed off several chapter back now manning the oars!
As far as writers having ‘built in credibility’ well, I think I have to give a good part of that credit to my editor. Because they don’t allow you to see the bad stuff I’ve written!
And what I read per year is paltry compared to the vast consumption of books that editors do. If it were up to me to make recommendations, I’m afraid you’d be down to at most a few dozen books a year, by the time I’d winnowed out the ones I didn’t like. One year I was a reader/judge for the Philip K. Dick Award, which is given for best original paperback that year. My mailbox was literally stuffed with books, month after month! That was as close to experiencing the reading level of an editor that I ever want to get!
I have seen some wonderful success stories for self published or self printed authors. When such success does come, it is often hard won and very much deserved. What I’ve seen far more often, unfortunately, is aspiring writers ripped off by dishonest ‘vanity press’ publishers.
I hasten to add that there are some excellent ‘do it yourself’ publishers and printers out there. But there are also some horrendous ones who take cruel advantage of inexperienced authors. I’d urge any writer who is considering that route to take the time to educate yourself on what is out there.
I expect that tradition publishing and traditional bookstores will last at least for my lifetime. There is just something magical about wandering a bookstore, venturing into a section where I don’t usually go and discovering some amazing author or book. The on line experience is just not the same. On the screen, all books weigh the same and smell the same and all the pages have the same texture.
I’ll compare it to my childhood, when almost all my school clothes came out of Sears and Roebuck, or Wards catalogs. Now I can walk through malls and run my hand over fabrics and try on different styles. Would I ever go back to mail order? Only under duress! And the same will ever be true of my books.
I’m enjoying this discussion!
Robin
May 3rd, 2010 on 11:32 am
Hi, I’ve just dropped by from Robin’s Newsgroup and I’m enjoying this discussion too. I know a person who, unable to find an agent or editor, self-published just for the magic feeling of seeing his story in print. He had tried for some time to get his work published but found the rejections soul destroying and eventually gave up (despite my encouraging remarks that even Harry Potter was turned down several times!). I wish he had kept at it because the story was really good and he did have some local success with it. Now I know Sarah stuck at it for two years or more, I wish he had persevered. Anyway, Robin or Sarah, do you ever get authors sending their stuff to you hoping you’ll pass it on or recommend it (be assured this is not something I’m intending to do!).
Elaine
May 3rd, 2010 on 12:30 pm
Oh, my, yes! Readers will send me a short story or even a whole book manuscript sometimes. Or ask permission to do so. And that presents a couple of serious problems for a writer.
The first is that I’m a writer. I’m not an editor or an agent. So I can’t really give solid editorial feedback on a story. I can tell you, “I didn’t understand it at all” or “This is how I would have written it,” or maybe, “I liked it.” And that’s the end of it. I can’t offer to buy it and publish it, and I can’t offer to represent you to a publisher. So it consumes time for me, and it also holds up the aspring writer, because while that manuscript is sittin on my screen, chances are that it’s not making the rounds of publishing houses or possible agents.
Sending your manuscript to another writer is a bit like taking your dog to a fellow pet-owner when you need to take him to the veterinarian or the dog show.
The second problem has to do with plagiarism accusations. This is particularly true when someone wants to send a published writer a story they’ve written in that author’s universe, perhaps using the author’s own characters. (Yes, that happens. It’s called fan fiction.) But it can also simply be a fantasy story with a really cool character or unique concept for magic. If you are sending your unpublished work to a writer you enjoy, chances are you are doing it because you feel you have a lot in common. And that may extend to magical systems or enchanted swords or whatever. If you send a story to a writer and in it there is a magical turtle, and the author’s next published book has a magical turtle, you may feel the author ripped you off. Or it may be a coincidence, or it may be that the author had previously written about magical tortoises, and so that was why you sent him your magical turtle story, never dreaming that the author already had a magical turtle story in the works. (Authors like me have books in the pipeline a year or two before they actually appear in print.)
Now, I personally have never met a writer who ’stole’ a story from anyone. But people do bring lawsuits against writers, often for very superficial similarities. You can probably turn up some examples if you do a quick search. Someone sued J.K. Rowling over the word ‘muggle’ because that person had used Muggle as a name in her book. I believe there was also a lawsuit against Stephanie Meyer (http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/arts/2009/08/22/2009-08-22_jordan_scott_suestwilight_author_stephanie_meyer_sued_for_plagarism_in_breaking_.html) The author claims that the similarities are a wedding scene, and a scene on a beach. Pretty generic stuff, to my way of thinking, but the other writer and her lawyer must have felt differently.
We can shrug and say, “That’s silly, it will be dismissed.” But for a writer, it represents time and money spent to defend yourself. So some writers will flat out refuse to read unpublished stories sent to them.
So, what do I do? I admit I take some chances. A young reader sent me a 2 page story she had written for a class. I read it and told her that I’d liked it, which was true. And as I said above, that was all I could really do with it. That, and encourage her to write more stories and actually submit them to magazines.
Entire fat manuscripts sent to me, by email or (horrors!) snail mail? I respond with a note that I simply do not have the time or expertise to offer editorial advice. Recycle bin or delete key follows. That sounds so cold, doesn’t it?
The other thing I always do is suggest that aspiring authors look for a peer critique group at a local YMCA or library, or joins an online writer’s workshop. There they can get feedback from a variety of viewpoints, do a rewrite, and get a response again. And there are wonderful workshops, such as Clarion and Clarion West, for writers who feel they are really ready to take the plunge and commit 6 full weeks to get instruction and feedback from professional editors.
I always think it’s good for aspiring writers to take themselves seriously from the very start. Believe you are going to have success. Have faith in your own unique vision. Believe that your writing has value. Don’t display it for the world until you are certain you have made it as good as you possibly can. And that means that your advisors should not be your mom or your high school buddy (who may be prejudiced in your favor) but real editors or people in your writers workshop that share your committment to your work.
And that takes us right back to being willing to revise and listen to your editors!
Robin
My, this got long!
Robin
May 3rd, 2010 on 6:13 pm
I did forget the quantity problem. Publishers/agents have to burn through a lot of stuff, and obviously writers are too busy writing to do that. And professional editing really does matter, although frankly some of the stuff I’ve seen lately doesn’t seem like it went through an edit phase. Also, I tend to forget that not everyone is married to professional editor.
I also love going to bookstores, but I just don’t see how they can survive once a good e-reader comes along. I’m afraid the printed book will go the way of album art.
Speaking of plagarism: you can go through almost any pair of books and create a list of similarities. Like I did with Scarabaeus and Dragon Keeper. Only crazy people think correlation means causation.
Self-publishing without getting ripped off is actually easy. Just remember you’re hiring a printer. All they are going to do is print books for you when you tell them to. All they can charge you is a price per book. If they try to charge or promise you anything else, then run away!
Elaine, the only person who sends Sara manuscripts is me…
May 4th, 2010 on 1:19 am
You make a very good point about self publishing or self-printing your book. I’ve always felt that there were several types of books for which self-printing was the most logical path to publication.
Years ago, a friend of mine wrote a book and illustrated it. It was very specific, on how to judge a certain breed of dog at a dog show. Now obviously, that’s not going to sell millions of copies, but for some people it’s indispensable. So she self published it and from what I understand, there is still a certain amount of demand for it.
I can think of all sorts of other books that would meet that criteria: family histories with geneology, or a cookbook of Grandma’s favorite recipes. The personalized family history is one area that I think is really wonderfully realized with a self-printed book or a video of photographs with their stories.
As you say, if the writer goes into it with a clear idea of what he is buying, it can actually provide a wonderful service.
Robin
May 4th, 2010 on 9:14 am
I don’t know that bookstores will go away entirely. Take my opinion with a grain of salt, of course, since I happen to work for a bookstore.
E-readers are changing the game and no mistake, but I think there will still be a place for bookstores in the market for a long time to come. Admittedly, the bookstore of the future may not look anything like current bookstores. Like any other organism, bookstores must adapt in order to survive the ever-changing world. Whether that means an increased emphasis on device and content sales, a migration to entirely online offerings, or something completely different, I don’t know and only time will tell.
May 4th, 2010 on 11:17 am
Terry, I hope you’re right, but I look at the fate of Video rental stores and worry. On the other hand maybe they’ll put a POD machine in every bookstore.
Robin, as you mentioned, another good use of POD are authors with books out of print. But then, e-books never go out of print, so…
Another thing to worry about are reading habits. Lots of young people don’t even read anymore - they just wait for the movie.
May 4th, 2010 on 1:40 pm
Glad you mentioned POD machines. There is one in the University Book Store in Seattle. I haven’t visited it yet to see how it works, but it fascinates me.
Robin
May 4th, 2010 on 3:38 pm
I find the thought of the demise of book stores so depressing. I can spend hours browsing in Waterstones - it’s almost a zen-like experience. E- readers will never replace the pleasure of buying and opening a brand new book for me. And that book store smell - surely the equal of freshly baked bread!
Elaine
May 5th, 2010 on 2:47 am
They have a POD machine? That’s incredible. I want one!
I can’t imagine choosing books without being able to thumb through them at random and get a sense of the writing. But I also can’t imagine authors ignoring the %40 royalties they get from e-books, or readers ignoring the ability to store their entire library, for very much longer.
I suppose there were people who couldn’t imagine giving up records or 8-track tapes, either…
May 5th, 2010 on 8:05 am
But, Yahzi, the video rental store hasn’t gone away. It’s just changed. Netflix is a video rental store & Blockbuster is emulating the Netflix model. Maybe someone from the 1980s or 90s wouldn’t immediately recognize these companies as video rental stores, but that’s what they are. They’ve evolved and changed and they have developed a potentially sustainable (until the technology changes again :)) model. Bookstores need to do the same thing. Evolution! That’s what it’s all about!
May 5th, 2010 on 12:57 pm
40% royalties from e-books sound great. I don’t know which publishers offer that. I know I don’t get 40% of e-book sales. There is quite a range among publishers. I think about 20 to 30 percent is more likely.
But even if you get 40%, then you have to ask 40% of what amount? People don’t think they should pay much for e-books. We had the recent dust up with Amazon thinking that e-books shouldn’t cost more than $9.95. I won’t get into all that here, but it’s worth looking up and reading about. I think they justify cheap prices on the grounds that there isn’t a physical object being shipped around.
But the fact is that most e-books are still a ’side product’ of real or tree books. For the most part, e-books still ride on the coat-tails of all the editing and PR that is done for the paper books. The very idea of ‘cover art’ is pretty much linked to paper.
When people argue that e-books should be really cheap as they are ‘just digital information’ they are forgetting all the work that goes into creating a book. It takes about year from the time I turn in my manuscript until the book sees print. During that time, it is edited by editors, shuffed about by editorial assistants and copy editors and promoted by PR departments. Cover art is selected and paid for, ARCs are sent out to get quotes from other writers, etc. etc. Advertisements are sent out to magazines. And the publishers are paying rent on their New York offices, and utilities and paying for copies and phones and internet. And when the e-book is created, there is the cost of digitizing the work, re-checking it to be sure errors have not crept in, and then making those files available to download sites and managing the payments for those books.
So all that cost has to be spread out, not just over the hardbacks and the paperbacks but on the e-books also. The way I see it, every edition of the book should bear a share of what it cost to create ‘the book’.
Now I also feel that it would be reasonable to give readers a ‘free’ e-book copy when they buy the tree book so that a reader can have access to the story in any form they choose. But the mechanism to do that hasn’t quite come into being yet.
Robin
May 7th, 2010 on 2:58 am
You’re right, there’s still editing and production, but the distribution is way cheaper. And distribution is at least half the cost of a paperback. So e-books should be cheaper.
Of course, it’s distribution that the print guys have locked up, so ya, the print publishers should be terrified of e-books. Authors… not so much.
20-30% royalty is only average for print publishers. E-publishers (like mine) sell e-books for about 2/3s the price of a paperback and typically pay a 40% royalty. The editing is fine; they’re a very professional outfit. I’d give you a link but it’s Romance and I don’t want to compromise my nom-de-plume.
The only downside is volume. My highest selling e-book is only 1,400 copies over the last 2 years. Is that because there’s a lack of marketing, or because there’s a lack of market (not everybody has an e-reader)? I think it’s just the market; my e-pub does a good job of marketing even though they have to live off some pretty low volume. When someone finally brings out the killer e-reader things are going to change. Also, give me print-level volume, and I and the publisher could easily go down to 1/2 a paperback price.
I think what e-books really need is the ability to trade them with your friends. It goes off your e-reader and onto theirs, and you no longer have it. Just like a book. Until then people won’t view e-books as “keepers” since they’re so hard to share. I mean, why have a library if you’re the only one who can read it? I think the publishers think that not sharing is good; it means more sales, right? But I think it leads to less sales, because if you like a book someone gives you, you’ll look up the author and buy more.
May 7th, 2010 on 3:10 am
Terry,
If Netflix is the face of the video rental store, then bookstores as we know them are doomed. Heck, I hardly even use the disks Netflix sends us; mostly I just download straight to my TV.
May 8th, 2010 on 11:58 am
Robin
Now I’m going to lie awake tonight wondering what part of what book you later thought you should have changed!!!
It’s interesting for me to find out that so much editorial change happens after the author has written their book. It sounds like much more of a collaborative effort than I realised. It makes me wonder about the compromise of artistic vision, and maybe self publishing does offer an alternative. But it does sound like it would be very hard to achieve the same quality without the expertise offered by the range of staff in a publishing house. I am just mindful that marketability (which is partly affected by fashions, trends) doesn’t necessarily equal ‘better’.
May 23rd, 2010 on 7:17 am
I am very happy for this great wordpress blog. I like your blog. I probably make a bookmark from my website. diet expert