Ooooh, you’ll never guess what that Horus did the other day…
by danabnett on Jan.22, 2010, under Dan Abnett and Graham McNeill
Graham and I have been gossiping away like a couple of fishwives over the last couple of days about the general subject of whether it’s more difficult to write in your own world as opposed to a shared one or not. Digressions, well there have been many, but we thought we’d share the conversation with you today.
Dan: So, easier or more difficult?
Graham: That’s an oldie but goldie. I’ve written stories that are part of shared worlds and stories set in worlds of my own creation. Both are hard work and both give me the chance to stretch muscles in different areas of my brain. In one I can be as inventive as I like, with the walls of the sandbox as wide as I decide to make them. In the other I can be as inventive as I like, with the walls of the sandbox as wide as I decide to make them…
Writing in my own invented world allows me to do what I like with such trivial matters as the laws of magic, geography and other such mundane realities. After all, who’s going to contradict me? It’s my world, the laws of nature bend to my every whim, allowing me to play out my crazed fantasies with the lives of mortals as my playthings. Ahem. But what I like best about invented worlds is that there’s no limit to the levels of invention. I can build incredible vistas unfettered by anyone else’s vision of how things ought to be, and that’s a very seductive promise. But then, that world has to work and have depth enough to be believable and consistent or else I’m going to fall flat in a pile of soggy logic. And you can bet that anyone who decides to follow me into that world will spot any cracks in the logic.
So does writing in someone else’s invented world remove that problem? Nope, because when you get right down to it, the world background is only the beginning; it’s the characters that populate it and their stories that are important. Whether a world is invented by the writer or someone else, its compelling characters and interesting stories that pull the reader along, and that’s where the invention comes in. I mean, who wouldn’t want the chance to invent and create defining elements of an established universe? That’s what I love about writing in the Horus Heresy project; we get to fill in the blanks between the lore, creating new stories and characters from the raw stuff of unwritten history. Yeah, I could play within what’s there without deciding to fill it full of my own creations, but that would be a chore. I mean, how counter-intuitive is to be shown a great big magical kingdom beyond the front door only to decide to play inside for the day?
Dan: That’s the really appealing thing about the Horus books, I agree. With 40k, there’s a basic level of stability to be maintained, because it’s got an ongoing life: people are playing (literally or metaphorically) in the sandbox every day, and you have to be mindful of that. But with the Horus books we’ve been able to open things up, and pass ideas between ourselves, and the other writers on ‘Team Horus’. I find it very satisfying to navigate the gulfs between existing islands of fluff in the Horus material, to find out what invisible real estate lurks, waiting to be discovered, where you can build something amazing, and also to work out what sort of amenities actually need to be constructed. Wow, I went off on a whole little town planning analogy of my very own there.
As someone once said, and I think it was Spiderman, “with great power comes great responsibility”. It’s worth us pointing out that we’re very careful with this work: it’s not stretching things to suggest that 40K fans are counting on us not to screw this up. If we blithely suggest that, I dunno, Rogal Dorn has a real thing for showtunes, or the God-Emperor is, in reality, a six year old girl from Tower Hamlets called Stacey, or that the whole Heresy was an entirely avoidable falling out triggered by low blood sugar late one afternoon, then I fear we would be told to leave the magical kingdom and never return.
When it comes to building your own worlds, do you have any guidelines you’d be prepared to share with me and six billion readers? I mean, you mentioned soggy logic: do you sort out your world rules before you start writing and scrupulously reject anything that contradicts them, or do you start out from a vague place, fine tune and tweak as you go, and then revise afterwards?
Or do you just go hell-for-leather for whatever feels like it’s going to be the most fun, and hang any contradictory consequences (which is, I believe, isome people refer to as the Russell T Davies method)?
Graham: I had serious thoughts to share, but the idea of Rogal Dorn belting out, ‘Happy Talk’ from South Pacific with a chorus line of dancing Imperial Fists behind him has pretty much derailed me. Sorry, Dan, I know you like the Imperial Fists and all, but that image is here to stay.
What I love about Heresy era writing is that there’s so much that isn’t known, and what is known is sketched out in such broad strokes that when you look closely you can see the bits the painters missed. And therein lies the fun, scratching your own doodles into the empty spaces and thus changing the pattern completely. Hmmm, you go for town planning analogies and I do home decorating, must be the frustrated artist in me coming out.
When it comes to building my own worlds, I start up high in the clouds with concept. What if all the cellphones and iPods became self aware and started controlling people through their playlists? (For a start, I’d be in a mad place, given I only have three playlists; Metal, Cthulhu and Stand-Up Comedy. “Aaargh! The Old Ones Return as Eddie Izzard talks about cross-dressing!”). Or a world where everything we knew was maintained by a bureau of Normalcy, who papered over the cracks in reality with aberration-resistant wallpaper. Each concept then begs a dozen different questions. Who are these people? Do we know about them, and where to they live and work? What happens if they don’t do what they do? What’s the daily life of one of the operatives like? Does he go home and have tea with his wife and talk about the mind-melting collapse of the laws of physics he saw through the ruptured fabric of reality or does he simply say, “pass the salt, dear.”? Each answer spawns more questions, and before you know it, you’ve got a (sort of) working frame to hang your other ideas on. It’s a bit of a ramshackle way of doing it, but it seems to work for me, so I’m not going to tinker too much with it. Sometimes it’s good just to write a sample of the world and its characters to see what comes out of it, as most of the best ideas come out of the writing. Though I can, and do, get lots of good ideas planning out the background to a world, you just can’t beat tossing aside the inflatable armbands and jumping in to see what the water’s like.
Dan: yeah, I do so regularly. There’s that old saw that says you have to know the rules before you can break them, though I tend to favor a ‘mischievous schoolboy‘ version of that: I know what the rules are so I don’t break them and get into trouble. However, I also work out what aspects of school life are not covered by rules, and flout them outrageously.
All in the best possible taste, obviously.
With the Horus series, it seemed to be there were a couple of things happening. We’d all planned and brainstormed together, and got detailed approval and briefings from the High Lord of Terra ( or ‘Alan’ as we call him). When I started writing the first one, I’d sent dismembered bits of it to you to look at so you could get your teeth into the second volume. You described it as me “lobbing tennis balls into the air for you to smash”. I’d knock up a plot point or concept, you’d deliver the kill-shot. And that was mostly very deliberate.
But I was also noodling away in between times, developing local colour and fluff, and it was interesting how those things carried over as well. There was a sort of ‘contamination’ of actual universe fabric. You and I were busy saying “remember to show X killing Y” and “make sure you set up A betraying B”, and in the back ground, invisible idea spores were drifting about, spreading the-
Great, now I’ve worked myself into a mold analogy.
It worked so well, we deliberately chose to do it with the most recent Horus books: A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns (the battle of Prospero told from two different sides, the former yours, the latter mine). Now, this was all derailed by the fact that I spent the last quarter of 2009 inside MRI machines while they worked out I had epilepsy (whole other story), so A Thousand Sons is out now, and is particularly splendid, but it will be a while before we see Prospero Burns (I’m working hard to catch up). The best laid plans, and all that. Despite the cock-up on the timing front, this creative combo has once again paid dividends, I feel. Organically, and certainly not the way we expected it to, but again I’m feeling that kind of osmotic drift …
I suppose what I’m saying (dragging this back to the original topic… “there was an original topic?” I hear you all cry) is that working in somebody else’s universe can have downsides: you don’t set the key rules, you’re working for The Man, The Man gets the final say, there is a stigma attached to tie-in work. BUT… when it works, you know its working, and there’s this really exciting creative chemistry that wouldn’t happen if an author was working alone on his own ‘universe’, and only really cooks off when you’ve got like-minded writers teaching each other tricks in the same Big Top (oh my god. He’s off again. Send for the Analogy Police).
Graham: Ha, I remember well the first meeting we had for the Horus Heresy project, a grand mash up of ideas and plots and characters that literally had me drooling at the prospect of getting started. And you know, I think these books perfectly represent the best aspects of working in someone else’s universe. See, I too can stick to the point! We get to collaborate with some exceptional people and throw our ideas around while bouncing them off multiple sounding boards. It’s a real buzz watching such a talented bunch of creative types bat ideas around like a pack of wolves with a wounded lamb. It was such an inspiring experience, because I remember everyone’s take on the Heresy and the background was ever so slightly different, and that allowed a real froth of excitement and flow of creative juices to bubble up. Okay, I’m getting slightly overblown with my metaphors, so I’ll rein that in for now.
The point being that having so many of us putting our thoughts into the mix allowed us to come up with story arcs and themes we might not otherwise have invented. Getting people like that together, it generates material that, more often than not, is greater than the sum of its parts. Everyone comes up with ideas in a different way, and everyone wants to inspire, and be inspired by, the others. I’ve yet to come away from one of these meetings without a dozen ideas jostling for pole position in my head, a slew of notes and the urge to get them all down on paper before they evaporate.
With the first two Horus Heresy Books, your Horus Rising and my False Gods, we talked on the phone and e-mailed each other throughout the process of their creation, and let me tell you the books are the better for it. I remember one person saying on a forum that they had suspicions that I’d not actually written False Gods, as the writing flowed so seamlessly from one book to the next. For the briefest moment, this mortally offended me, before I understood it for the compliment it was. Clearly working together and keeping the lines of communication open throughout the writing of the books had paid off. It’s something I think we enjoyed so much that we did it again for The Dark King and The Lightning Tower. Inadvertently, we also did it for Mechanicum and Titanicus, one a Horus book, the other a Sabbat Worlds novel. I’d sent you the synopsis for Mechanicum, and within a day or so you’d phoned to say that some of the themes in my book were similar to ones in yours, and that it might be a good idea to compare notes… Once again, this led to a great conversation where ideas were traded back and forth and connections forged between the stories, leading to a pair of books that I think are better for the creative collaboration. And just to make sure it was working, we did the same with your Prospero Burns and my A Thousand Sons (out in March, people!), albeit in a slightly different way, but I think it’s generating positive vibes on both fronts.
Now, dragging my wandering narrative back to the point once again, what I like about this is that it’s a creative process I simply wouldn’t get if I were working in my own little bubble of a world. Sure, I can share thoughts with test readers or fans, but no matter how much they might like it, they wouldn’t have the same connection to the world. When we get together at the Dark Tower of Black Library, it’s with an equal understanding, love and respect for the world we’re working within, and that kind of collaborative gold is beyond price. I’m sure the Warhammer worlds aren’t unique for this, but I bet there’s pretty few shared universes where all the writers get together for jam sessions like this.
Even when I wrote I, Mengsk for Blizzard, I wrote it more or less in a vacuum – though I could always e-mail the head bods in California for fact checking and to throw ideas out for consideration, but it’s not the same. And I’m a social person, I love talking books and writing with people. When you feel the concept flowing, the stories coming together and the idea that just rocks, it’s one of the best feelings. I mean, do you think it’s a way we should write more of our fiction, as part of a creative team or duo, or is there a virtue to working alone, without the help/interference of another ego, errr, I mean, creative person…?
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January 22nd, 2010 on 9:20 am
So, you mean you and Dan are not the same person? When you folks started writing the Horus Heresy novels did you draw cards to divide the different threads or make proposals? Is there something in and out of the Black Library Universe that you REALLY want to write and haven’t gotten to? Lastly, who would you say ar your literary influences — aside from your respective muses?
January 22nd, 2010 on 9:29 am
Wow, that was a really nice look behind the scence! Good to hear there is a bunch of authors who work together instead of sticking to their own. I read somewhere that is was planned to end the HH series with a triolgy, so does that mean we can exspect a second Abnett-McNeill-Counter cowork? Maybe in reversed order?
@ Dan: I think it was Uncle Ben who told Peter Parker that “with great power comes great responsibility”.
January 22nd, 2010 on 9:37 am
Wait…the corpse-god is a 6 year old girl named Stacey?
That really changes my perspective on following Khorne…ok, not really.
January 22nd, 2010 on 10:54 am
There’s a great Quentin Tarantino quote which I think applies very well to this conversation. Essentially, to paraphrase, the writer doesn’t need to know everything, but the reader has to believe that the writer does. I think that’s valid and very, very true.
January 22nd, 2010 on 11:46 am
i think team-writing, as you do, is a brilliant strategy to a cohesive series! it must take a great deal of trust in the other person, though. suppose they just have a laugh at your ideas?! being a very shy as-of-yet unpublished writer, i have a hard time letting my own husband read my unfinished work… but something tells me you two don’t have that problem.
thank you, graham, now i’m gonna have that imperial fists doing showtunes image in my head, too! makes the day a little brighter…
January 22nd, 2010 on 11:52 am
all this wondering about the day-to-day lives of characters makes me wonder… does khorne only demand blood for the blood god? what about sandwiches for the blood god? dude’s gotta eat!!!
January 22nd, 2010 on 12:00 pm
Elizabeth, that’s a hurdle every writer needs to get over. You can be the greatest writer in the world, but who’s going to care if no-one ever gets to read it? You have to be willing to let your precious words go out in the world and, potentially, get savaged by the vicious dogs of critique. The trick is not to take it personally, and to learn from the tattered, bloodied rags that come back to you.
Develop a thick skin and take what you’ve learned and craft your writing into a leaner, meaner form. Feedback is the lifeblood of any writer, and if folk laugh at your ideas, get them to explain why in clear, unambiguous terms. Learn what you did right and develop that, but also learn from your mistakes, and don’t do them again.
I don’t have a problem showing folk my writing, because I have confidence in it, yet I’m always willing to be shown where I’ve made mistakes. It’s a tricky balancing act giving and receiving criticism, because writing is such a personal expression of creativity. But very few folk ever become confident in their writing without showing it to people they trust to be honest and constructive.
January 22nd, 2010 on 12:14 pm
Possibly a tedious question but how did the idea of the Mournival come about? Was it existing fluff or inspired by medieval lore? The lunar induction ceremony was a nice touch.
January 22nd, 2010 on 12:44 pm
Sooooooo who dose the buck stop with? i’ve read all the HH books and never seen a mention of an editor or high overlord of “team heresy”. Also when creating these new oh bugger im having trouble exsplaining myself here, let me put it another way Dan’s Legion book about the Alpha Legion changed the way people and i mean players of the game! see the Alpha Legion. Knowing there motivation for joinging Horus Lupercals rebellion was from a logical point “to save the Galaxy” not from Chaos corruption or a thirst for continuing there power after the crusade ended. This sort of changes where these guys now stand in the 40K universe. Also is there scope for all the Legions to get there moment in the sun or will some still be relegated to support roles? I’m thinking of the World Eaters amd Salamanders here. I’ve read a short story about the oragins of Angron and his chapter which i loved and i clever as it suggests a chapter composed of terren born space marines terns trator with there primarch a concept that i think is great as in the early books it’s made out that those chosen to be sacrificed on Isstvan are mostly Terran born and therefore loyal to the Emperor not the chapter.
Rich
January 22nd, 2010 on 12:50 pm
Sorry that was a bit of a ramble and it’s not helped by imaginitive spellings and total disregard or understanding of grammer. I have dys-whotsiter thats the crulest thing not being able to spell the thing you have lol
Rich
January 22nd, 2010 on 1:37 pm
Quick question for Dan.In yesterdays entry you mentioned “unbreakable rules: certain things you simply Could Not Do and certain things you always needed to,” short of not having Horus just stop and say sorry or something, what kind of rules would the franchise lay down in a more general sense about what has to go in a 40k book and what can’t?
January 22nd, 2010 on 1:39 pm
@ elizabeth
Butter for the Butter-God?
January 22nd, 2010 on 1:50 pm
Tsar Boris - Originally who wrote what was decided via a gladiatorial trial similar to the one fought by Kirk and Spock in Amok Time. With the same music. My influences… many. many, many, but they include Lovecraft, Bradbury, Vance, Wyndham, Buchan, Burroughs, Borges…
Leif - I think who writes the end of the Battle of Terra will also be decided in an Amok Time stylee.
H - Indude.
Elizabeth - an armoured hide, and an ability to let sniggers bounce off you, are two of the most useful tools a writer can possess. Shed your inhibitions.
Frank - the concept of Mournival, though the word is very old, came entirely out of my head. It just came to me one day. I think I was playing Hearts with my family.
Rich - We answer to the High Lords of Games Workshop. I had to get personal permission to do what I did in Legion, though part of the shock twist in that was SUGGESTED by the High Lords. It had been in the secret fluff since Rogue Trader. It is a process of give and take. We are about to do some equally outrageous planning and negotiation.
And I hope they’ll be room for everyone in the Heresy series. Salamanders particularly. BTW no apologies necessary. My spelling it atrocious.
Paul - it’s all about tone and IP, really. The really obvious things. Don’t try to go for anything that changes the nature of the universe (without permission), don’t do things that would look wrong or unlikely in a game of 40K. That sort of thing.
January 22nd, 2010 on 2:44 pm
One of my favourite bits in the entire Heresy series was the interaction between Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus especially the moment at the end where Fulgrim realizes what hes done and allows the daemon to take full control of him, its these moments like those with the revalations about the Alpha legions motives which make the series a stand out tog et us to identify with these characters who up until nopw have been seen as very one dimenstional villains / heroes.
And I dont know about anyone else but at the moment I do seem to be identifying more with the traitor primarchs such as Magnus, Fulgrim, Alpheros/Omegon then say Dorn and especially Lion El’Jonson who ive found so far to be a very unsympathetic character though im sure this will change as each legion/primarch get there own book.
January 22nd, 2010 on 3:38 pm
Like it, love it, now just need to get my own Team Horus to boot ideas about. I can only say Messers. A and McN that your wonderful examples have inspired me to start the tough process of writing.
I, for one, would find it at this stage tackling my own world with my own rules. I’m a control freak but not that bad. I’m liking the sandbox of 40k for
the moment while I work out things like plot, story, style, etc. From my old songwriting days I found it easier to bounce ideas of others. This thinking things up by myself is hard.
January 22nd, 2010 on 4:06 pm
dan and graham: thank you so much, gentlemen, for your advice. it means the world to me!!! for a teacher who can let anything students say roll off my back like water off a duck, its kind of silly for me to write and then keep it to myself because i’m shy over it…
i also have a question… why does it take so much longer for books released in the UK to get released in the US?
leif: fantastic!!!
January 22nd, 2010 on 4:27 pm
Thanks for that Dan
January 22nd, 2010 on 6:02 pm
Something that hasnt been discussed yet is that youve invented characters/heroes that are bad guys!
From Darkblade to Honsou, it would be nice to see you two collaborate on something deliciously evil (but good,time allowing of course) .Obviously both of you have your own heroes ,villains and settings but a crossover would be good or working together on something completely original in any timeline.
January 22nd, 2010 on 6:07 pm
“It had been in the secret fluff since Rogue Trader.”
Secret fluff? You have a cellar full of dark dusty GW tomes full of stuff yet to be released and expanded upon? You know what happened to the unknown primarchs etc? Is there really a void dragon on Mars? Will the emperor be reincarnated? (Ok, I’m really not excpecting an answer to any of those :P)
January 22nd, 2010 on 6:22 pm
I just want to thank you both for the fantastic blog posts and subsequent discussions!
January 22nd, 2010 on 10:43 pm
Thanks for sharing so much about your process guys.
Of topic question for Dan - you blog with such comic flair and triumff is so funny - have you ever considered writing something “lighter” in the WH40k universe? It can be done - Sandy Mitchell’s Cain books prove that - or is Cain all the comedy that the dark future can support?
January 23rd, 2010 on 12:37 am
That would be awesome! You could do like ‘the life and times of a Gretchin’. Or maybe a ratling sniper that tags along with the Ghosts and gets into no end of mischief. Good suggestion Joe.
January 23rd, 2010 on 3:59 am
Cor - yeah, I really loved the Fulgrim/Ferrus stuff too. Must’ve been written by somebody REALLY good. Yes, the bad boys are getting good screen time, but just wait for Russ (a little longer than I was expecting you’d have to wait, I’m afraid - sorry about that). Anyway, just wait for Russ. And I’m looking forward to stuff I want to do with Dorn. And the Khan.
Elizabeth - the easiest way to think about it, I find, is this. Criticism of your work is going to hurt. Sting, at the very least. No way around that. I got a Marvel outline bounced back to me this morning for ‘tweaks’ and I was not a happy bunny, even though I’ve been a professional, inky-fingered, cynical hack writer for 20 years. Anyway, if you want to write, then presumably you want to write for an audience, to please an audience. If someone gives you negative feedback on something, there’s no point feeling hurt. You didn’t please them. Find out what it was that didn’t please them, and why, and exploit that COMPLETELY FREE WRITING ADVICE. Rather than feeling set back and dismayed by criticism, be empowered by it. Use it. Take advantage of it. If you ignore it, at least be sure you’re confident why you’re ignoring it. You’ll rapidly turn the least comfortable part of being a writer into a very useful tool, and take the sting out of it at the same time. And get used to being utterly unfazed at standing naked in front of people to (I mean this last part figuratively).
Big - mate, I think that where we’re going next with the Horus books may offer Graham and I the opportunity to do just that.
Joe - Thanks for the compliment about Triumff (my original fantasy novel from Angry Robot, which I’ll be talking about around Monday-ish time). Yes, Triumff has a ‘funny’ strand, an intentional ‘funny’ strand in it. Of course, just because you intend something to be funny doesn’t always mean it actually is. GIven the overarching topic of one’s own versus other peoples’ universes, it’s perhaps significant that two of the most complex and considerable universes I’m made up for myself (Triumff, and the world of the long-running comic strip Sinister Dexter in 2000AD) are both, at least, semi-comic. Just the realistic side of out-and-out Terry Prachett humour (please understand, I’m not comparing my wit to his ability to make you laugh, I’m just trying to give you a tonal target area for reference). Some of the earliest professional work I did was ‘funny’. As a junior editorial trainee, I worked on the Ghostbusters comic and wrote, from scratch, an advice column as ‘Egon Spengler’ every WEEK for over two years. It was ghost-hunting advice, and it got sillier and sillier and more and more convoluted. I think I learned an awful lot about comedy from that time. Like, I shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near it.
It’s actually a wonder I can write 40K with a straight face. I’m not sure how Sandy works the line so deftly: I’d be afraid of tipping into parody. Having said that, I think natural humour flows from some of my 40K characters, such as Zweil and Varl in the Gaunt books, and the likes of Frauka and Unwerth in the inquisitor series. And I am slowly putting together a collection of brand new Ravenor and Eisenhorn short stories, each one set at different times in their careers or featuring different characters, and one of those might get played for laughs.
January 25th, 2010 on 8:17 pm
Ravenor and Eisenhorn short stories?!?!? Yes, please!!!
January 28th, 2010 on 5:44 am
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